this is a disturbing article. First you have a fantasy that there's a bunch of people out to get you. Men. They all hate you and wish you ill for some reason- I guess just because. But I guess that's just feminism for you. I wish I could persuade you otherwise. I'm a man. I think feminism is shit. You're probably an insane man-hating bitch. But I don't hate you. I don't even know you. And if I did, I still wouldn't hate you. I'd probably quite like you through your flaws. I rather like outspoken women. I think you even say on the web site that you actually do hate men which is refreshingly honest btw (another reason I'd like you, maybe).
For the record, my FAQ says I hate most men, because of their behavior. Typical Dude thinks that I could not possibly be referring to him, or the kind of behavior he is displaying right now. Oh, Typical dude, when will you learn?
Anyway, the assumptions in the quoted passage above are as follows:
1. I care if this guy likes me
2. I care if this guy likes/understands feminism
3. I desperately need to hear his opinion on my worth as a human being
4. I desperately need to hear his opinion on feminism
5. He can call me a "bitch" without it being hateful (he probably thinks his intent is magic)
ALL of these are totally fucking wrong. If you are out there, Typical Dude, pick up a fucking sociology text book sometime, or you know, READ about feminism before you come to a feminist blog and make an ass out of yourself. The post in question was about real examples of shitty behavior from men in public and at my place of employment, but Typical Dude knows how I should really act in the face of it, despite never having been subject to sexism himself. How silly of me to formulate my own response based on my experience and knowledge! He wants me to behave in a way that is pleasing to him, and is so fake as to be detrimental to me, but he doesn't hate me, see?
Witness Typical Dude's complete inability to add to the conversation on this post:
I have to say that this whole fetish with pretending that being hugely overweight is not a health risk is one of the most insane things about feminism.
Yep, the dude keeps showing up only to repeat ideas that I argued against extensively in my post, I spent hours gathering information to link to and to make sure that my conclusion was correct before posting. But guess what? He had a relative whose diabetes went away after Weight Loss Surgery, so all my evidence is invalid somehow. Do you see a pattern yet? Typical Dude's experiences are always more valid than mine, and is even better than actual research on the subject. But he doesn't hate me, see?
Then he shows up on this post, and has even more to say:
Well this thread makes you sound quite human (and humane) which is certainly different for a feminist.
You certainly have no problem with the sexism of banning them (men) from these feminist web sites. (he goes on to accuse me of gender essentialism)
Typical Dude feels he has a pretty good grasp on the situation, even when he clearly does not. He believes his few minutes of browsing on my website are a good enough reason to let loose all kinds of irrelevant, weird shit from his psyche that AGAIN hinges on the assumption that we are all dying to hear what he has to say. It reminds me a lot of when creationist debate boils down to biologists vs a washed up actor from a sitcom, or the anti vaccine debates boil down to doctors vs model actresses. Typical Dudes figure that there isn't a lot to actually know about feminism, so why look it up? He is an expert because he feels like one. He shows zero respect for me by failing to read my website and insults me constantly, but he doesn't hate me, right?
He also equates the oppression of marginalized people to his lack of access (to SPEAK, not to LOOK) at spaces where those people talk. They are the only spaces where people are free of bullshit like Typical Dude's rantings above, and he is pissed that women have the nerve to want that for themselves. He believes that the pain of being told to shut the fuck up on one tiny corner of the net is equivalent to knowing that if you are a woman and discuss sexism, the Typical Dudes of the world will never leave you alone. It isn't. The reason a Typical Dude can call that kind of shit "sexism" is because that is what he imagines sexism to be for women. It is just a fleeting sense of unfairness that is a mild irritant. There is that kind of sexism, but it is constant, and grating, and always on top of some other huge thing that makes the small annoyances that much more painful. With a straight face he equates his paper cut with my missing arm, but its not hate, right?
It is hate. People think that you have to be violent or outright state your hatred for women for it to count as "hate", but you don't. What women experience as sexism or hatred is what counts, not what some sexist asshat intended when he said something sexist. I experience Typical Dude's bullshit as hatred. He is someone who assumes that I exist to absorb his bullshit, someone who calls me slurs rather than my blogger name, who talks down to me without even a basic understanding of the subject matter, who tells me that I am judged worthy/not when I never fucking asked, and who seems to think he is much more important than I am (on MY blog). Someone who does that sure as fuck seems to hate me, right? Imagine striding into someone's home and behaving that way, and then whining when they (rightly) notice the aggression seething out all over the place. I think we all know why he expects me to post his comments and take all this bullshit in good humor. They are all going in the trash, now that I have extracted the educationally valuable materials for you, the reader. You're welcome.
UPDATE 09/26/2011
Dude left 9 (NINE) comments on various posts as of now, as to cement his not-getting-it-ness in the minds of readers. Did you know he is actually an expert of feminism, who has researched it for years? Ha.
I wonder why he doesn't understand the difference between two directly opposing philosophies like radical feminism and gender essentialism then?
but, but, but, he LIKES "outspoken" women ;-)
ReplyDeleteFantastic post, Skeptifem! Very serious subject matter, also very funny (I have to admit that I laughed a few times). Guy is quite a tool.
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting the comedy, Skeptifem :). This dude and your brilliant analysis just made me go "LOL".
ReplyDeleteWhenever I hear Dudes insisting "I don't hate Women, really like them!" it reminds me of Nietzsche's critique that respect is a fundamental part of hatred (many others have written that, but Nietzsche is the one who comes to mind for me).
ReplyDeleteSo, I'm splitting hairs on the definition of words, but I don't think it's necessarily dishonest/incorrect for Dudes to say they don't hate women, they don't feel enough respect to be capable of that. I think you can "like" or "love" a group of people without respect, just in the same condescending way you like a small child.
Of course, nearly all dudes never consider anything more complex than "gggrrr feminist bad!"
Anyways, great post. Sorry to hear about the bullshit.
Guys definitely make a habit of this kind of bullshit. When women talk about liking someone, and when men talk about liking other men, they mean liking them as a person, assuming they have a full internal life and respecting them and what they have to say.
ReplyDeleteWhen men talk about liking women, they usually mean "liking to put their penises in them until they ejaculate." Or "liking to look at the parts of them most likely to give me sexual gratification."
When I was in high school and hung out with guys, I noticed that the way they talk shit about most of the girls they have sex with. At first, I thought that meant guys won't like you if you have sex with them. Then I noticed girls talking about how they think it means a guy likes them if they have sex with them. I eventually put it together that guys don't have to "like" girls to have sex with them. It wasn't until I became an adult that I made the connection that it isn't just the "sluts" they have sex with and don't like, they usually don't like their proper, take home to mom, buy flowers and candy girlfriends either. They think the same of them as the ones they call sluts, they just know they have to pretend at least for a bit to like them.
Yeah, you are a gender essentialist. All feminists are. Fundamentally you hate men but have compassion for women. You can't get any more essentialist than that. You believe that there's a fundamental difference between the sexes which means its OK to treat men like shit, but anyone who treats a woman badly is immoral.
ReplyDeleteOddly enough that is a set of rules that most traditional conservatives would agree with you about. That's why there's all those rules about "Ladies first".
Feminists sometimes pretend that they think of men and women the same but it's obviously false. For whatever reason of their own traditional conservatives seem to actually believe that of feminists. Probably so they can ridicule feminists for supposedly believing that eg women are just as strong as men, or other clearly false things.
Of course that's a misunderstanding of what is meant by equality. Nobody actually says men and women are identical, but an egalitarian does claim that men and women are equally accorded respect as human beings - as people.
And THAT is exactly what feminists deny. THAT is exactly what you deny when you say things like you hate men. You are saying men are fundamentally different from women because men do not deserve to be respected as people, as human beings.
And that is why I said you are a gender essentialist.
------------------------------------
How did you end up in Utah?
@angelique:
ReplyDelete"I eventually put it together that guys don't have to "like" girls to have sex with them."
Awful, isn't it...? This is one of the things about guys that I find truly despicable...but at least I know about it. I think, honestly, that most women are unaware that a lot of guys will have sex, and even have relationships, with women they don't respect/don't like. This behavior is totally counter-intuitive to most women(Just speaking for myself, I haven't loved all the men I've been with, but I had respect and some degree of affection for all of them). Shit, I'm not sentimental about sex in the slightest, and I still didn't want to believe it for a long time--it seemed too mean-spirited and cynical to think that guys could act that way. But a lot of them do. And at least when you know it, you can start protecting yourself.
Men's sexual relationships with women can be motivated by hostility. Women forget, or don't believe that, at their peril.
It is sad, though. A real heart-breaker.
Sorry to comment so off-topic to your excellent post, Skeptifem. I just thought Angelique made an important point. I'm the anon who left the second comment, after Dawn James.
Margo
Ok, I broke my promise and published one of the dudes comments. In addition to the nine mentioned in the update, he left 11 others, and did shit like thanked me for "replying" to him (he can't seem to understand that I am making an example of him), and I referred to him as typical dude to spare him the embarrassment of having his name attached to such stupidity, but I guess he just can't fucking learn.
ReplyDeleteGender essentialism is the opposite of radical feminism. Go look it up. jesus fucking christ.
"And THAT is exactly what feminists deny. THAT is exactly what you deny when you say things like you hate men. You are saying men are fundamentally different from women because men do not deserve to be respected as people, as human beings."
ReplyDeleteIf I thought dude assholery was inherent why would I waste my time asking them to stop it? I am so pissed because I know they can cut it out and don't (you know, like how I tell you to stop leaving comments and you leave ELEVEN OF THEM).
Margo- talk about whatever you want to. I like it when comments go places that aren't expected, especially when the comments are thoughtful, like yours.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Skeptifem!
ReplyDeleteLMFAO
Byron, I think you might be so hostile because you're so very, very confused. You contradict yourself repeatedly and refute arguments that only you yourself have made. It's okay--everyone gets anxious and agitated when they are confused and don't understand what is going on--it can be very overwhelming!
The explanation for your behavior is obvious, but unfortunately, it is not an excuse. The distinction is crucial.
I politely recommend that you consult your local community or junior college. Most of these institutions offer competent, affordable instruction in remedial English and reading comprehension skills. You may also find introductory courses in feminist theory (look in the history or English departments if there is no women's studies dept) and Western philosophy (esp. the logic of inquiry).
It may help.
Barring that, most people clean wax out of their ears with Q-tips. Just be careful!
Godspeed
What an asshole.
ReplyDeleteJesus shit. It's like there is something in the current climate that has encouraged such fuckwits to really take the fuckwittery up a notch. They are always there, it just seems they are more omnipresent of late. It's all sorts of nuttery that seems to think it is more acceptable these days, but the ingrained-patriarchy constellation of stupidities are getting louder than the tea-baggery.
ReplyDeletefookin' *sigh*
In all this, I really appreciate the efforts of the bastions of sanity like you, Skeptifem. Rage on.
What entropy said
ReplyDeleteAlso: "You're probably an insane man-hating bitch. But I don't hate you."
Conflicting statements much?
Skeptifem, David Byron is a persistent and long time notorious anti-feminist troll who's been banned from every feminist or not-screeching-right-wing-hate-site in the world for more than a decade. If that makes sense. There's no limit to his hatred of women and feminism.
ReplyDeleteginmar