Well, lets look into it a bit closer. I found a few lists of most dangerous jobs, they were based on fatality data from the BLS. This one has the rank, deaths per year, and dollars per hour. For one thing, women do die in the industries that are claimed as being 'most dangerous' and others. The 2008 data shows 4,827 deaths for men, and 387 deaths for women (about one fourth of the deaths of women were homicides, compared with roughly 6 percent for men). Superficially, it seems like the claim of men being underprivileged in doing dangerous work seems true.
However, the BLS does not consider "housewife" a job, nor is "prostitute", so the death rates and injuries in those occupations aren't recorded in the same place.
Prostitution is by far the most dangerous job in america. I found a study about the death rate for prostitutes per 100,000. Luckily my article on the 15 most dangerous jobs included the same information about certain occupations. In the most dangerous jobs article, the death rate for men in the dangerous occupations per 100,000 ranged from 12-111.8. The rate for prostitutes was 229 per 100,000 (this ONLY counts homicide, it is 391 when all causes were counted).
I had difficulty finding comprehensive statistics about a large group of prostitutes, but I found several small studies that all mirrored each other in that prostitutes routinely experience rape, violence, and death. Most violence was from clients or pimps, part of the occupation. I managed to get data from a couple hundred prostitutes via gathering the studies. Prostitution is a job where women are routinely infected with STI's, including HIV, and have less access to healthcare than most other people. Prostitutes died in the course of multiple studies, like this one:
Four women died during the course of the study; two had AIDS, two were murdered. This mortality of 5.93 per 1000 person years was 12 times the expected rate for women of a similar age.
I had extreme difficulty finding any statistics on how many prostitutes are murdered per year to match against the statistics on BLS.gov. One part of the difficulty of tracking prostitution deaths is that their murders are not investigated as rigorously as the general population. They often get put in "missing" status permanently. Gary Ridgeway managed to kill 48 prostitutes in the us, most in 1982 and 1983, and the murders went unsolved until 2001. I counted and the death count for that serial killer in 1983 alone made the death per year rate of prostitutes higher than two occupations on the dangerous jobs list.
If anyone has any comprehensive data about the number of prostitutes killed each year, please contact me or leave a comment. I wish to know how it compares to bls statistics of men dying in dangerous professions. The number of prostitutes murdered is of so little importance that it is either extremely well hidden, or simply isn't counted at all.
When it comes to intimiate partner violence that ends in murder, the count is 1159 female for one year, and 385 male.
I am aware of the fact that more men die violently and kill each other more often (and that not all prostitutes are women). I am not making this post in order to make it seem like women die more than men, I am trying to refute the idea that women do not do dangerous work. We are in fact in a worse position- our jobs are not considered work, and the danger involved isn't inherent in the work. The majority of men dying in things like construction and logging are hurt by dangers inherent in the job. Women are killed because someone decided to kill them.
Not only that, but a lot of prestige is heaped on the dangerous jobs of men. There are shows about how macho and courageous loggers and fishermen are. Firemen and cops get memorials and praise. You will notice how men are compensated for their danger at a higher rate than normal non dangerous jobs. Women get the opposite of that, we become the objects of derision for either occupation, and don';t generally get compensated much.
Another dangerous occupation that doesn't make the list is the labor we all shipped off to other countries, or that is done by illegal immigrants as to exploit them. These are workers who can't get workers compensation or report unfair conditions, they are in the same boat as prostitutes in that respect. Hundreds of women have been killed or raped in juarez, mexico, while going to or from their factory jobs. There isn't necessarily reporting for this kind of thing. It isn't clear that undocumented workers who die on the job get counted on bls (considering that they aren't documented). When you die in that sort of job there isn't life insurance for your family. There isn't outrage or safety meetings. No one gives a damn. Workers without labor rights do dangerous factory work for below minimum wage and in conditions that they have no power to report or change. Non white people are over represented in the pool of injured men in the US, which is worth noting as well.
I think you make some very valid points. But once again I see someone pointing out what men are doing wrong. In this case making statements that are inaccurate. But what can i, as a male, do to help fix it. Is my being aware enough? I completely agree that inequalities exist. But if all we do is complain at the men, I doubt many of us will listen. I'll get off of my soap box now. If I'm wrong, please let me know.
ReplyDeleteMatthew, being aware is very definitely a Good Thing. And thank you for that.
ReplyDeleteBut (and look at me trying to put this gently so as not to upset a valuable male ally, hello appeasement): this post is not about you. It's not about men or what men are doing wrong. It's about the fact that our society as a whole devalues women, devalues any work they do, and devalues their lives. People justify this devaluing of women in different ways, one of which is to claim that they're too weak/fragile/non-male/unimportant to do "dangerous ('dangerous' meaning, in a society where the masculinity is valued and feminity is not, 'macho and therefore noble and good') man's work". The violence and danger experienced by women working as prostitutes completely refutes the claim that women do not do dangerous jobs.
What can you do to help fix it? Point out all of the information outlined in that post the next time you hear someone giving the verbal equivalent of "Woman should be happy in their inferior social position because at least women don't have to fear being killed on the job!"
Point taken. Sometimes I have to be reminded (against what society has taught me) that being male infers no special privilege. Including, that the conversation ought to revolve around me or that my opinion is needed. Keep the good posts coming! Oh, and just to throw gasoline on the fire, being from Nevada, I say legalize and regulate prostitution. Yes, illicit prostitution will always exist, but with good regulation we can hopefully spare the majority of prostitutes from violence and STI's.
ReplyDeleteThis post is so good I wrote a blog post about it, during which I noticed that the 5.93 figure is higher mortality rate than a combat infantryman.
ReplyDeleteMatthew, do you think that the pimps and johns who beat, murder and rape prostitutes do it because prostitution is illegal?
ReplyDeleteBut if all we do is complain at the men, I doubt many of us will listen.
ReplyDeleteAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matt- you know johns, rapists. We all do. Not "complaining at them" means they think their behavior is okay. Stuff like jokes about whores and rape for instance, can be challenged. As a man your complaining is going to be much more valued than mine, they can't dismiss you the way they can me. So there is something you can do.
ReplyDeleteYou can also look for activism in your community to participate in, if you don't feel like you are doing enough. If there isn't anything anti-trafficking or that aids prostitutes/domestic violence victims, just participating in efforts to alleviate local poverty will help. The studies I linked to noted how the majority of prostitutes want out but do not have the means, anti poverty work gives people the means.
Thanks physioprof, my thoughts exactly.
And yeah, legalizing prostitution- legalizing something, turning it into an industry (especially one where johns are the REASON that violence and STI's are common) is going to do everything possible to keep the johns happy and exploit the workers. Exploitation on a mass scale exists in capitalist systems. I am pretty sure that the government would need to get involved, pass legislation on behalf of prostitutes. This is the story of just about every industry with regulation, people had to push for it for a long time for it to happen. I cannot picture many politicians lining up to align themselves with prostitutes.
ReplyDeleteLets say that they don't, that they have industry regulations- the johns will just find street prostitutes to treat like shit. They don't all wanna treat people right. Some want to rape them.
If the "protections" are anything like the ones for workers in porn, its not going to accomplish much of anything.
Decriminalizing prostitutes gives all the benefits of being able to go to the cops and such without a bunch of money hungry corporate douches enhancing the exploitation of the workers.
A post about this issue here;
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/05/09/myth-men-get-paid-more-for-working-in-dangerous-jobs-wage-gap-series-part-10/
Um........ Ok. Where to start. Maybe a little about me. I'm a male (already established). I'm 29. I'm a married man to a brilliant woman whose intellect astounds me on a regular basis. I'm a fledging Bright/Atheist/Skeptic/Secular Humanist who is trying to raise my consciousness to the views of others. My wife and I have recently had some discussions on feminism. Those discussions have led me to seek out and explore the female view in America. I have to say that it has been humbling and a bit sickening to look outside of my culturally ascribed views. What I have seen is the very real lessons that we teach to both our boys and girls. Those lessons include among others, that women ought to bear a larger percentage of the work load and be happy about it; that men are inherently more rational; and that women somehow, magically, control the "passions" of men. I am trying to get to a place where I can see more clearly, the message behind the words of things we say and do as a culture in regards to the genders. I have a small inkling that my choice to voice my noobish view here, in a public and well thought out forum may strike some as inane, pedantic, and uneducated. That's okay. If I am going to be educated, have my ignorance lifted, I need to say what I see and why. Then, I can take the feed back and evaluate it. I formulate a hypothesis, toss it to the wolves, and analyze what remains. I am happy that my thoughts have been dissected and the remains returned to me for further study.
ReplyDeleteAs to the prostitution thing.........
I looks like I have just whacked a bee hive with a stick. One of the common arguments against prostitution is that automatically places the disparity of force on the side of the man. Further, that prostitution is a profession (I might take some flack for the choice of words here) into which a woman enters only under duress. Really? Here in Nevada we have brothels into which women can contract to sell their services (both physical and social) in an environment that is safe, both violence wise and infection wise, to the satisfaction of all parties involved. The argument of "only under duress" strikes me slightly one sided. Should we say that a woman who chooses to stay home with children is selling out the feminist movement by not getting a job (yes, motherhood is one hell of a tough profession)? Isn't it about choice. The right to choose one's own way?
But, and it's a big one, I'm boiling down a complex and firebrand issue for the sake of the argument. Exploitation in capitalism? Say it isn't so! Yup, It's there. All over the place! Rape and violence being legalized and industrialized is certainly not what I am advocating.
Finally (for this rant), I think I get where some of you are coming from. If the men of our society hold the reigns of power, then it is precisely to those men that we must complain. Point taken.
Right then, I await the stings I am about to receive! :)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWow, Matthew. Making real progress there raising your consciousness, coming on a feminist blog extolling the virtues of prostitution as a profession. If it's so great why aren't more men willing to be fucked by strangers for a living? Would you do it?
ReplyDeleteAs you are eagerly "awaiting the stings I am about to receive!", I would say go fuck yourself. You are obviously not interested in women gaining any dignity and freedom from oppression or challenging the status quo. You're just peddling the same old misogyinist bullshit and trying to bait the feminists.
And I know. You are one of the Nice Guys.
Thanks for the ad-hominem attack and constructive criticism. Next? Oh, and if you are pissed off, good. That means you might actually think instead of simply spouting the party line.
ReplyDeleteOk. I am also in Nevada, I also support legalised prostitution, the differance is that I'm female. I've worked in human services fort the last 6 years, with women, teens, and men. And have seen and delt with first hand women who have/are prostitutes. There is a big differance in the lives of streetwalkers and the women who work in a legal brothel. And yes, the women on the street have it bad very often, but they don't go to the chips when it gets bad because its illegal. If you're ever here go check out the brothels. There pretty nice, great security, clean.
ReplyDeleteI guess the point is that I agree on the issue of making it our choice and making it safe. No it's not going to stop all the abuse but at least it gives us the ablity to choice what we want.
By the way, there have been male prostitutes at the brothels in Nevada.
Sorry- cops not chips
ReplyDelete"That means you might actually think instead of simply spouting the party line."
ReplyDeleteI might "actually think"?
Which "party line" is that? Talk about ad-hominem attacks.
"If you're pissed off, good."
Matthew, do you have *any idea* how patronizing you sound?
There's a great site where you can get some constructive help here: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/resources/mirror-derailing-for-dummies/#educate
I'd focus on the If You Won’t Educate Me How Can I Learn section. Also: the You’ve Lost Your Temper So I Don’t Have To Listen To You Anymore, You’re Not Being Intellectual Enough, Unless You Can Prove Your Experience Is Widespread I Won’t Believe It, and Well I Know Another Person From Your Group Who Disagrees! sections.
Ouch. I'm not sure how to respond. I am sorry for coming off like a jerk. I'm also sorry that my views are incongruent with most on this blog. The tone quickly moved to adversarial. Helped in no part by my vociferous rebuttal. I have read the derailing for dummies. It's a fine piece of satire. Thank for lumping me in with the idiots whose minds were made up 60 years ago and see women as tools and obedient sex toys. I understand that when anyone surrounds oneself with like minded individuals then the views are radicalized. Eventually, no dissenting opinion is considered, meritious or not. What you may fail see as an insider its that different is not always wrong. So, congratulations, you've successfully defended your territory against an interloper. Worse yet, and interloper born with testicles. I shall go sulk in the corner and lick myself. After all I'm a man, why should I, the privileged, sully myself with discourse. The shame is that I like the blog. It's well thought out stuff. Oh well.
ReplyDeletelael- the brothels are only nice for johns who want to treat the prostitutes nicely. I am aware of the brothels via documentaries and research, I don't feel the need to visit one. The market for rape and abuse don't go away, and if that isn't allowed in a legal brothel a john will get it somewhere else. Usually from someone more disadvantaged or desperate. There will always be illegal prostitution because of that.
ReplyDeleteLets say that we in the US were able to regulate all prostitution and protect everyone like in the brothels- sadistic johns would do sex tourism and rape women and children in other countries. Trafficked women will never be regulated by prostitution laws because they aren't here legally. Other people here illegally are in a comparable situation when they are forced into prostitution.
Seems to me like most of the women in the legal brothels had other opportunities, and are more likely to be white/conventionally good looking than most. The sadistic johns are just being shifted onto browner/poorer women, while people hold up the protected women as proof that prostitution is good. I am glad that women are spared abuse via the brothels (hopefully, I don't really know if it is pr bullshit or if they have to say its good and safe to keep their employment), but the mercy is doled out on terms of privilege, and then used to oppress women who won't be able to obtain decent treatment. It isn't win-win, like everyone likes to portray it. It is only a clear win for the johns.
Matthew-
ReplyDeletefeminism comes in many different styles. Feminists argue all the time. There are pro prostitution feminists, which I don't represent.
I put a link to feminism 101 in the sidebar, and will repeat it here:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/
It isn't that I can't answer your questions, I have just had this same conversation sooooo many times that I am sick of it, and no one person can do a good job of representing all of feminism to you. Feminism 101's blog is specifically for guys like you, and the people who run it have patience, and the conversations in the comments are for questions like yours exactly. Good luck with everything.
Sorry Skeptifem for hurting Matthew's feelings and running him off your blog with my shrillness and dissenting opinions. It's a shame that a disagreement with one woman who is another a poster like him and not the owner of the blog has him off sulking into a corner to lick his wounds and pout that he will never come here again.
ReplyDeleteFinallyFeminism101 was the link I gave him too. Hopefully it will be helpful in his quest to raise his consciousness. It's a good start.
No Theoreticalgrrrl you haven't run me off. And thanks for the link Skeptifem, I understand the fatigue that can come from having to explain something over and over again. I will see what feminism 101 has to offer.
ReplyDeleteIt shouldn't come as news to me that feminist aren't a monolithic block. No group of people with a label are. I am truly sorry for offending you Theoreticalgrrrl. I obviously have some introspection to do if I felt threatened by a strong opinion that differs from mine in the comment section of a blog.
I have led a privileged life. I grew up in a middle class family and have never known first hand abuse or hunger. Being a male I can see where my life has been easier because of the society we live in.
I will still continue to defend my beliefs until proven wrong. I hope that I will be able to see when that has occurred and not cling to falsifiable opinions.
So, I guess in a vain attempt to have the last word (not likely) I'll throw out a link to a video that has great meaning to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac33dOAgqus&feature=player_embedded
No prob, Matthew. This is Skeptifem's blog so I did feel like I was a little out of line by saying "go fuck yourself", I apologize for that. :) I do admire Skeptifem a great deal, she is a genuinely gifted writer and thinker; I've seen her posts on other people's blogs as well and she just always dazzles me. So please don't miss out on her blog because of little ol' me.
ReplyDeleteThe problem that comes up is that the label feminist is only a label, just like the label atheist. It's very easy to vilify if you don't understand the simplicity behind it. An atheist is just someone who doesn't believe in supernatural beings and a feminist is someone who believes women are fully human. People with these basic beliefs can have vastly different views on many other topics. Feminists are not a monolithic block, no. There is no 'party line', no secret feminist society with secret handshakes, we don't eat babies or dance naked in the moonlight. Well, some feminists might occasionaly dance naked in the moonlight, but not as a rule.
I do love that speech by Richard Dawkins, thanks for sharing. When I started identifying as an atheist (which is actually only quite recently, about two years ago) it was interesting to see that the same tactics used to vilify and silence people like Dawkins and the atheist movement were virtually identical to the tactics I was used to hearing used against feminists when I started identifying as feminist.
great post, skeptifem!
ReplyDeleteFor Matthew and other who are for legalized prostitution. Please check these out, and read them. They are highly intelligent and thought out.
ReplyDeleteThe first is a list of prostitution myths and facts, layed out in point form:
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/laws/000234.html
Next is a report about legalized prostitution:
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/laws/000165.html
More of the same:
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/laws/000151.html
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/how_prostitution_works/000219.html
Finally, a blog by a prostitution survivor. She deals with a lot of hatred for what she writes, so please respect and listen to her words.
http://rmott62.wordpress.com/
Why would a prostitution survivor have to deal with hatred for speaking truthfully about her experience (not that it's suprising)? Thank you for her blog link.
ReplyDeleteThose "most dangerous jobs" lists never list things like sexualized violence or repetitive stress injuries.
ReplyDeleteHotel housekeepers have some of the highest rates of on-the-job injuries.
http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/3122
The rate of workplace violence for female healthcare workers, food and beverage servers, retail workers, and real estate agents is a hell of a lot higher than it is for male workers in any industry.
Real estate agents report some of the highest rates of rape.
And obviously strippers are subject to a lot of sexual assault and harassment and stalking and other violence (like that stripper some wastes of life set on fire in a parking lot about a year ago), not to mention dance-related injuries.
Also, women do much more agricultural work than they get credit for, despite owning a tiny percentage of the world's land.
http://www.globalpost.com/category/tags/women-farmers
Hey theoreticalgrrl!
ReplyDeleteThanks for the thanks! It is not my blog, but I totally believe in the writer, and think more people need to understand the voice of an insider. Her voice tends to scare those who are supporters of prostitution, trafficking and the sex trade in general, and therefore, she gets lots of anger, since her words are truth, and truth is power.
Maybe I'm delusional, but I feel like I'm enough of a feminist that I'd piss off feminists -- at least, the ones, I've encountered.
ReplyDeleteI'm ALL FOR equal pay for equal work; if you're hired to do a job, then you were considered capable of it (face value). As long as I don't have to do part of your job for you, then we're cool.
I work in a pretty "full-spectrum" environment; my manager is female, and does as good a job as anyone. What I have problems with is certain female workers who bring me some of their work to do for them -- one, in claims/returns, brought me a lawn mower to empty the gas out of (about 6 oz.); I showed her how to do it, and she raised her voice, saying, "I'm not doing that! I'm a woman, I'm not gonna hurt myself!" Okay, my employer promotes 'team lifting' when something exceeds a certain point, just because I can do it alone doesn't mean you have to... but you DO have to do your job. DON'T TELL ME YOU WON'T DO SOMETHING ORDINARY BECAUSE YOU'RE A WOMAN!
I told her, in an equally loud voice, that she better never say anything like that to me again, and if she couldn't do her job, she needed to quit. (All it would have taken was the quick request, "Can you help me lift this?")
Equality also has a cost.
I won't defer to another man when coming through a narrow aisle, just because he's a man. Neither will I defer to a woman in that same event just because she's a woman.
There's no mixture of "equality" and "preferential treatment"; the whole idea of 'ladies first' is a COURTESY, not an entitlement, and there are WAAAAAY too many women in the workplace who don't realize that. If you're walking toward the door to go smoke, and I'm approaching you with a bulky/awkward load, don't expect me to give way. I'm working, you're not, at that moment. Stop and step aside.
People first, gender/color/whatever a distant second.... When more people think this way, a lot of issues will go aaway.
Clyde,
ReplyDeleteI don't expect preferential treatment as a female, but I think a some of women are still infected by the 'ladies first' mentality, just as many men are. I always hold the door open for anyone who comes in after me wherever I go. I don't care if the person is a man or a woman, I just consider it common courtesy, but some can men get really offended by it. I've even been called a bitch just for doing something as harmless and polite as that, go figure.
Deprogramming from gender stereotypes and expectations takes some time. I wouldn't assume all the women you work with are feminists just because they are female, however.
I do see an attitude among some men where they are more obnoxious and rude toward women than they would be toward a man in a similar situation in trying to prove that they don't give "preferential treatment" to women.
I agree that if we just treated each other as individuals first and foremost there would be less of these types of issues to have to deal with in the first place.
Trust me, I don't -- I KNOW they're not all feminists! (Most are ghetto divas, actually....)
ReplyDeleteSOME men use feminism to vent their resentments, true; they're just immature overgrown boys....
I DO love having a conversation at work with anyone, male or female, who demonstrates they don't have their heads up their asses. Just doesn't happen very often...................
Some great links on this comment thread, I have a lot of reading to do.
ReplyDeleteI think theoreticalgrrl is correct wrt to "benevolent sexism" type behaviours (just read that up on fem101 ha). Most of these things are just common courtesy, and guys should stop expecting a fucking medal.
Whilst I cannot think of many things I do that are female specific, I would help a guy struggling with a heavy load for example, I do admit I would be quicker to help a female. I'm also much, much quicker to offer things like a coat etc.
I don't feel like I personally place any expectations on a female because of it, but the discussion on female 101 gave me food for thought on the issue of male chivalry. I'm not convinced you cannot be a feminist and still make use of social customs like offering your coat etc. In some ways it is a matter of practicality in seeing someone safely home for example.
These thoughts aren't ordered I apologize, just a spaghetti stream.
I once worked as a customer service rep at a phone sex co. I just took credit card numbers and patched callers through, I didn't do any phone sex myself. A few workers came into the office for their shifts but most worked from home. Hearing the supervisor monitor the calls was unbelievably disturbing. There were so many men whose fantasy was child rape and incest I thought I was going to lose my mind. I swear, maybe 70% of the calls. It was chilling. And the women who would ask if they had to do things they found revolting like simulating a child being raped were told they couldn't pick and choose what type of callers they took, it was just part of the job.
ReplyDeleteWhen a woman who worked out of the office, after finishing with a child-rape fantasy caller, said she wanted to hunt down the guy and kill him (and I said I'd join her) the manager sat us down and told us that before we decide to go postal, we were actually protecting children by giving the callers a safe space to vent their fantasties and get it out of their system. I'm not sure I buy that argument, but I quit after a few weeks out of pure disgust, even though the hours and pay were good.
For those who think their crappy jobs are as exploitative as prostitution and other sex work, imagine having to simulate a child being raped as part of your job description and maybe we'll talk. And this is just on the phone. I can't image what happens with in-person fantasies for prostitutes who have to physically act it out.
Yeah that sounds like a rationalization to me TG. I haven't seen any evidence either way, but it is a myth that letting your anger out in "safe ways" makes you a less angry person. I can't imagine this would be different, it probably reinforces it if anything.
ReplyDeleteOn the flipside assuming these men aren't actually acting on their passions, it is hard to justify going out and "killing" them. With things like this how much choice do these people have? I don't think anyone chooses to be sexually attracted to their family or children. Evil exists only in story books, these men sound like sad, sad people.
It of course doesn't mean it should be legal to do this stuff, quite the opposite in my opinion.
I often feel bad for police who have to track down these individuals (not comparing to prostitution in any way, just that this would also be bad). Having to pretend to be a child, infiltrating their rings and having to view child pornography day in and day out to catch them. That is an ugly side of the world to see.