Anyone who has been in a skeptics group knows this discussion. Some dudes (and occasionally a few ladies) decide that it has something to do with the evolution of the mind and the innate ability of women to understand science or logic. Some others say that social pressure makes women avoid scientific subject matter (which has been documented and results in a difference in science/math ability for women depending on their culture). These debates start because there is a noticable lack of women in skeptic groups, but also because statistically women are more likely to be religious or believe in stuff like psychics. Men who are into woo are usually more into conspiracy theories and UFOs, which gave more weight to the social explanation.
When I used to get into these debates, I would regularly fall into the second group, and argue that social pressure has a major influence in the hobbies and interests of women, discouraging them from participating in things like skeptics groups and science. My feminism was still in the fun feminism stage (my feminism was about "choice" and "equality" rather than freedom from an oppressive social order), so my entire range of argument seemed to be contained in those positions. It was either nature, nurture, or a mix of both. The cognitive sciences are not even close to being able to say what is correct, so not much got accomplished during that ever recurring debate.I shelved it off in my mind after considering that, thinking that after discussing it so many time with so many skeptics that I had a pretty good range of opinion and a good grasp of the argument.
I ended up finding a completely new answer in a totally different place. Once my feminism had stopped being something about me personally and more of a tool for understanding the world, the answer became clear. I could think about the question outside of my experience (someone who was already a female skeptic), and instead think of it in reference to the experience of typical women. I read about the way that labor is divided and compensated for, and came to a very obvious conclusion.
Women do the majority of the work around here, and around almost everywhere, actually. There are so few female skeptics because the potential ones are busy. Women are generally doing a lot of work that will not otherwise get done. They are disproportionately dealing with low pay and poverty, and with child and elder care. This means working more employment hours with less pay, and working for free much more often the rest of the time. They are volunteering. They typically don't have time to sit around and ponder things like philosophy and science.
That isn't to say that being busy makes anyone incapable of being active in skeptic groups, it just makes it a whole lot less likely. Having less time and money makes it more difficult to access the same information skeptics rely on to verify or debunk claims. All the extra challenges that women face are in addition to the sub standard science education that the general population receives in the us. There are anti science and anti intellectual culture elements that women deal with in addition to the gendered expectations of their interests. Being exhausted and dealing with practical matters makes it kinda hard to care.
The way I see it, this dudely tradition of sitting around and pondering while women and poor people did all the work started all the way back in ancient Greece. It continued on after that, and continues today. The domestic labor of women is taken for granted, it is how women are excluded from things that would help them develop their minds. Most of the science and technology in the world came to be because there was a vast underclass of people who were not allowed to do anything outside of the really essential labor. The people who benefited the most from the underclass are the ones who were allowed to investigate the world via science and philosophy. When I say science came about because of this system I do not mean that it happened because the system was good or useful, I just mean to describe the means of science. I have very little reason to believe that this was the best or most efficient way to accomplish these things- only a small number of people ever had the opportunity to attempt seriously investigating the Big Questions. Unique thinkers were tossed aside in favor of people who were lucky and incompetent. We have no idea what humanity missed out on.
The folly of that thinking seems like something of the past, but it isn't. There may be no stated rules in place excluding others, but many of the cultural customs create a discriminatory effect that follows the same pattern as the past. I am not particularly interested in the choices of individuals in the culture or why they made them in my take- there are very happy stay at home moms, very committed woos who wouldn't listen to science anyway, etc. That isn't the point. The point is that the social pressures result in people doing what they think they "should", not what they should be doing to gain the greatest sense of fulfillment in their lives- there is a difference that exists because of the cultural attitudes. It has been measured and shown to be real many times. It is the result of our collective inability to dismiss these ideas and fight against them.
This doesn't just mean fighting against the idea that women are not good at thinking about math and science. It also means opposing current ideas about what work is and how it is valued. It means women in their personal lives bringing up the option of delegating domestic labor to men, or demanding to be fairly compensated for it (not just during divorces). Women who can afford to this should, and the ones who cannot afford to this for whatever reason shouldn't be looked down upon for it. It means that the work of women gets to be called work.
This is probably best accomplished via a collective (community or government) payment system, because women need to know that the worth of their labor isn't even restricted to their families- poorly raising children means poorly raised adults live in society with the rest of us, affect each of us every single day. Fathers are not always locatable (and it isn't always desirable to do so anyway). This should be considered a final goal for feminist activism, with steps towards that being taken whenever possible.
I really like this post, particularly the 'feminism as a tool for understanding the world' comment, it's a good way of thinking about it.
ReplyDeleteI do have an honest question, which I'd really like your personal view on.
What do you get out of identifying as a 'skeptic'?
I ask because I probably agree with 95% of the stuff I see on 'skeptic' blogs, I'm a scientist and a non theist (millitant agnostic rather than atheist, but most honest atheists and theists will admit they don't really have more data than I do, they just have a different standard of what constitutes enough data to make a call). I'm nerdy and engage in several male-dominated pursuits, and I'm obviously not afraid of an argument, so I don't think it's any of those aspects of the 'skeptic movement' scaring me away. Near as I can tell, I'd be a potential skeptic. I am busy, but not too much for causes that speak to me. But I don't see any POINT to identifying as part of this group. There seems to be a lot of nastiness that doesn't serve any purpose and little benefit- I just don't get it. I like a lot of skeptics, I don't want to insult their movement, but maybe I'm not the only one who thinks this way, so it's worth asking 'what does the skeptic movement have to offer?'.
*Snap!*
ReplyDeleteFemale Representation At Paranormal Research Conferences - in response to a question regarding the 'flip-side' of the coin (women at parapsychological conferences) - I wrote the following. :)
Thanks for reflecting on the issue! :)
@ Becca:
ReplyDelete"There seems to be a lot of nastiness that doesn't serve any purpose and little benefit- I just don't get it. I like a lot of skeptics, I don't want to insult their movement, but maybe I'm not the only one who thinks this way, so it's worth asking 'what does the skeptic movement have to offer?'."
Oh, there's plenty of people asking that! :) Just did a podcast interview with Dr Pamela Gay (www.tokenskeptic.org) about some of the things she's facedand discussions with Daniel Loxton and Michael McRae on communicating science and doing it without resorting to 'nastiness', cliques or the 'one stereotype fits all'. :)
There's sites like 'The Fat One In The Middle' by Heidi Anderson which you should check out too - she just lectured at CFI on the matter.
I would love for the work I do to be counted as worthy as the work of my rocket scientist-highly paid via the DoD-ex husband. He never thought so and judging by the paltry amount of alimony I get, the legal system doesn't think so either. I see what I do as one of the most important jobs in existence: I home educate my two kids (no. 3 is grown) and try to fill their lives with joy, opportunities and love. I make myself available to them 24/7 so they can pursue their passions and live lives of boundless exploration and questioning and I do it while trying to treat them with respect and non-coercion (which isn't as easy as traditional parenting methods). But society says I'm "just" a SAHM.
ReplyDeleteI have time for my own interests as well. Like Becca, though I read lots of books and blogs written by skeptics and atheists, I don't really see the point of congregating with like-minded people of those persuasions. It would be no different than church to me. The only bond we share is a lack of belief. They don't tend to share my political beliefs (bring up the L word in Pharyngula's comments and you will be gutted) or educational beliefs (same group uses the word "homeschooled" as an insult) so why hang out with such people? Maybe I care less because I'm not much of a joiner in the first place.
Great post! I have an additional idea as well, though this is just forming and not well thought out at all:
ReplyDeleteThere's a lot of social pressure and social reward in religion that isn't present in skepticism. If you're trying to find friends, I've always been told you should join a church. And there's a lot of social reward present in going to church, you look very good to society that way as a good church-going woman. I've found that very few skeptic groups really offer the consistent social support IRL that church provides (though I know some groups are trying). In addition, if you are a poor, working woman who is as often as not struggling with childcare, church and church groups can help provide that, which makes them even more appealing. Not a lot of that in skeptic groups. And this social reward benefit goes back to the beginnings of the church and the beginnings of most religious movements. It was all about being a part of something and getting a support group in the process. Skeptics don't really tend to have that sort of thing, though whether that is in the nature of skepticism or merely a lack of foresight I don't know.
It makes me wonder how well a skeptic group might succeed if they offered more social reward.
You really got it right. I consider myself a liberated woman, I work in tech with mostly men, I do nerdy stuff in my free time, etc. But I still have this need to be doing something "valuable" all the time. I feel guilty if I come home from work and play video games (though I don't have kids and I do have a house cleaner). I feel like I'm not getting enough important work done, whatever that means. Looking back, that's the way it was for my Mom, and her mom.
ReplyDeleteWhen I join an organization I'm the first one to volunteer, even if it runs me ragged. The rational thing to do is to join without making a bunch of commitments. Instead, I just don't join. It drives me nuts. I very much want to be part of the skeptic movement, and I consider myself an activist skeptic, but I don't feel like I can wholly commit, and without the ability to commit wholly, I can't do anything at all.
To scicurious's point, I think it really would make a difference to me if skepticism was more of a community effort and less like a bunch of dudes getting together to B.S. When I go to work or to group nerd events, I have to put on my "Man Suit" to be able to fit in (I hope some of you know what I'm talking about, being super rational, being a good sport about sexist humor, listening to men whine about how hard it is to be a het white male, etc.). It's tiring and stressful. I am attending my first big skeptic's event soon and I am pretty sure I'm going to have to put on the suit. In my ideal community, I wouldn't have to.
I'm a single woman and I have no kids. I joined a freethinker (and their skeptics) group last year mostly for desire to connect with new people. Going the atheist/humanist/skeptic route made the most sense for where I'm at right now because it's what I'm interested in right now.
ReplyDeleteWe have quite a few women in the main freethinker group and the smaller skeptics one looks to be half and half. I'm sure there are a lot of women who'd enjoy coming out to something like that but are probably under the assumption it's filled with guys and a woman wouldn't get a word in, or be listened to if she did. That's certainly the opposite of our group, though.
That said, it's also possible to be skeptical without labeling one's self a skeptic. We all should be wanting to research the stuff we hear or read, rather than blindy believing people and buying into the sham without questioning its value.
Just saw this and felt the need to post.
ReplyDeleteThere have been so many times I've started trying to get my thoughts down for a book, a blog, or an organization with the best of intentions. I eventually get pulled into taking care of the children or the house or my job. (I'm currently the only one with full-time position in my household right now.)
I hold out hope that someday (20 years from now?) I'll be able to satisfy my desire to create a discussion on the things that interest me like science, skepticism, and a thousand other things, instead cleaning up.
By then though I'll probably be taking care of my mother...
Anecdotal evidence anyone?
As I have gotten older, kids grown, semi-retired, I am less and less concerned about joining anything. I continue on the journey of my life, relatively newly born humanist, free at last of religion. And I find I suffer fools much less well than I did when I was young. I don't want to waste time BSing with people who are intent on being right. I do occasionally like to hear how others arrived at their ideas and/or beliefs. But I'm not trolling for new friends. Don't need any more support groups. But can remember when the social support offered by organized religion was helpful to a young wife and mother. Suffered more then from fatigue and financial worry. Things that other women have spoken of with such elegance and insight. I am not sorry to be older.
ReplyDeleteSome of them are here! : http://skepticladies.wordpress.com/
ReplyDelete@Becca-
ReplyDeleteFor all the bitching I do about skeptics, I have seen some truly amazing things happen in skeptic group discussions.
There is this respect for really wanting to know and understand things within skeptics groups. Threads where people genuinely wanted to know the truth about an issue were inspiring to me as a human. There are people who really give a shit about the truth and don't just decide what is right based off of what feels best to them.
I learned later that there is a certain capacity for double think within everyone's mind, and that pointing that version of inquiry towards things like privilege and oppression were not welcomed. It saddened me. In my mind, skepticism and feminism are one in the same in that respect.
Most of the time when people read 'skeptic' they can guess what I believe, it is understood more as a rejection of the supernatural. That is okay for me because I do reject those things. It lets people know what I think about many things without them having to ask, so that is another benefit of identifying with skeptics.
@scicurious- you are right. That is a void that secular people haven't filled.
ReplyDeleteI have had thoughts about that before, like a single mothers network where people can help each other out. I wouldn't really know where to start on that, though.
Bloody good post, Skeptifem. I think my homeschooling genius of a wife would agree about the valuation of work (though between us we try to divvy nice), and how the use of her time is perceived and presumed upon (often by the women in our village, who seem hellbent on coercing her to take up attitudes that they're more comfortable with).
ReplyDeleteAnyway, right on. Oh, and sorry about my abuse of parentheses.
I know what you mean by men not doing much work. My father for example, was a mechanical engineer who sometimes held three jobs and usually worked 10 hours a day. However, in reality he usually stood around on the job and thought. When it came to actually repairing the machines and doing the welding, he would delegate a woman to do that. Also when it came to fixing his car when it broke down, he got a woman to do that as well.
ReplyDeleteAlso, whenever I visit a construction site I notice all the men standing around thinking while the women are mixing the cement, welding, or putting beams into place.
Elzoog, there was a statement in the original post about underclass people doing the work while the privileged got to sit around and ponder. With the birth of a sizable middle class, that's shifted around a bit (some of the middle class work their asses off, and some sit in cubicles pretending to work all day), but the point about automechanics and construction workers was covered.
ReplyDeleteSo the subset [women] got the spotlight this time around. What's wrong with that? Generally, bricklayers get more recognition and compensation for what they do than a woman staying at home and raising the children etc. I think a little bit of spotlight isn't too much to ask. Not by a long shot.
Short version: get over yourself.
I'm very much intrigued by your concept that the "busyness" of women (especially educated women, interestingly) in Western society contributes to a lack of skeptical thought among those same women. I'd always chalked such gender divides up to social pressures, but this adds another level of depth to the issue, and I'm enjoying it.
ReplyDeleteOn a slightly different note, it's very nice to see a self-proclaimed feminist taking a balanced, carefully-reasoned look at an issue. My time in academia has bred in me a strong distaste for feminist rhetoric (despite the fact that in most respects I am a strongly opinionated feminist, living in debt to the feminists who have gone before me). Your writing style is pleasant to read and not vitriolic -- I think I may have found in you a new blog to follow as a regular thing.
Rystefn,
ReplyDeleteThe chart that skeptifem links to only mentions house work. It doesn't mention all of the other work that people do.
As far as bricklayers getting more recognition, let me see.
1) To hire a maid to clean up for me generally costs $15 to $30 an hour.
2) The hourly rate for a babysitter is from $5 to $15 an hour.
3) The median salary for a bricklayer is about $45,000 or about 22 dollars an hour.
Okay, so they get a little bit more recognition.
The thing is, if you google the top 10 most dangerous or more physically demanding jobs you will find that a majority of those jobs are filled by men.
@Elzoog-The link I had in my post discusses house work, paid work, and volunteer work. It is pretty damn inclusive.
ReplyDeleteDecided to look at the link again. It mentions
ReplyDelete1) Weekday time use of married women living with young children (no mention of men)
2) Average number of hours per day men and women spent on various activities (no mention of going out and working for a living in this chart).
3) Percentage of the population who volunteered on an average day (volunteering is not the same as working for pay)
4) Percent of persons who volunteered ... (ditto)
5) Percent of persons who volunteered ... (ditto)
Nowhere does it include the number of hours men do paid work.
If you go to this link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6571375.stm
It says "Women still do more housework but men make up for it in the workplace."
WTF, 'only mentions housework'=also volunteer work? What bullshit.
ReplyDeleteSkeptifem, are you that incapable of applying logic?
ReplyDeleteLet me make this simple for you. Suppose you have the following
Women: Housework, 10 hours
Workplace, 1 hour
Men: Housework, 1 hour
Workplace, 10 hours.
Here, both men and women are working 11 hours, but women are doing a hell of a lot more housework.
To support your general contention that "women do more work than men" you need to factor in more than just doing housework. This is what you are consistently failing to take into account. As if somehow roads get built after mopping the floor or cleaning the dishes.
Let me reiterate, there is NOWHERE in that site that mentions the hours spent by men going out into the work force. If you think it IS there, then please point out where that site mentions it.
Skeptifem- thank you for your answer, it's a million times more useful for someone who is still unsure *why* they might identify as a skeptic than all the stuff over at PZ's.
ReplyDelete@scicurious- I wonder if such a movement could come from the UU's humanist groups. Of course, such people might be way too tolerant of the very easy to make fun of type religions like neo-paganism to satisfy the more hardcore atheists.
@Elzoog: I suspect that you might be interpreting the kinds of activities represented in each graph a little narrowly. To add my own layer of additional interpretation: I think the issue being highlighted in the numbers is once that comes into relief in a situation with two working parents. In such circumstances, it should be (anecdotally) obvious that in the lion's share of couples the woman is still expected to shoulder more domestic responsibilities even if both partners commit comparable time to professional responsibilities.
ReplyDeleteAlso, individual tasks (clean this, arrange that, maintain such-and-such) may pale compared to higher-order orchestration. By this I mean that a man who does the shopping may still have a lighter load than the woman who tracks the supply of food in the house, tracks the household expenses, and dynamically mixes both datasets in order to nail the optimal day of the month of the big shop and which days to leave to smaller ones. Architectural oversight is a task that weighs more than the sum of its parts in terms of responsibility.
It's all well and good that Dad took the kids to the dentist, but on whom is the burden to remember that the kids have an appointment at all, to make sure the dentist's office hasn't moved, to arrange everyone's schedules and inform who needs be informed so that the appointment can move ahead?
That's the rub.
If Mom and Dad work equal hours outside the home, why is she and she alone presumed so often to be Chief Operating Officer of the household?
Now, I should point out that my anecdotal pool may be different than yours. I live rurally, and many of the families in my village are very traditional. On the other hand, I also work in a major metropolis and I know the complaints of my female colleagues -- I know that often they have highly educated husbands who may much better lip service to feminism. I also know they feel they get the short end of the stick as far as the division of domestic responsibilities go.
Finally, when you point out how many dangerous jobs, and so on, are held in majority by men I think you might not realize the extent to which you're letting your blinders show. In a context of systemic sexism, it is natural that the results of such a system tell us more about how the system shapes people than it does about people themselves. Do you believe women hold fewer high-risk jobs because of some hypothetical anatomical difference in their brains, or because the opportunity landscape has been warped for them? Which hypothesis is easier to support, given our current understandings of brain plasticity and institutionalized bias?
Yours,
CBB
It's worth noting that "too busy for skeptical thought" and "too busy to surf skeptic sites" are two very different things.
ReplyDeleteI'm another who has looked at skeptic communities and thought, "Why bother?" -- The signal to noise ratio is too low and the amount of wankage way too high in the ones I've seen.
@Elzoog
ReplyDeleteIf you are curious about this subject in any genuine fashion you could have had your answer long before you resorted to calling me irrational.
There is a shit load of academic literature about this, available to you at any time you want to view it. There are entire books about "the second shift", it is well known enough to be referred to by that term alone. It is the truth- women work more for much less money, if they get paid at all. Deal with it. Your pissy little tantrums don't impress me, and neither does faulting a sociological images post for not being extensive enough for you. If you were interested in if women really do work more, you could easily find out. You are much more interested in bickering over a portion of that information that I linked to, and calling me names over it.
@Helen Huntington- totally. Priorities are affected by the work load, and maybe talking about those thoughts or organizing because of them isn't on the top of the list.
ReplyDeleteI do think that in general skepticism involves a shitload of research though, so it is hard for me to imagine how I would do it without enough free time.
skeptifem, part of what you said is so important it bears repeating a few thousand times. Women are all too often doing the real work, and it provides a different perspective. Certain kinds of bloviating on about philosophy only seem profound to the ignorant and inexperienced, who've never had to make truly hard choices.
ReplyDelete@Cheeseburger Brown - Thank you for your post. This was always my frustration. Even as the sole breadwinner with a stay-at-home dad, it was up to me to know what needed to be done around the house, what groceries to buy (usually buying them alone) and when, etc. If I didn't do that, nothing got done. Then, when you do make an issue of it, either by stopping doing all that, or "reminding" constantly, you are either slovenly or a nag. If your house is messy, it's not the man's responsibility according to the wider society. If your children starve, or don't get to the doctor, you know who is a bad parent.
ReplyDeleteAnd regarding church-like support for women's domestic tasks - who do you think will be providing that support? Not the UU men or the skeptic men, not by a long shot.
El sez: "The thing is, if you google the top 10 most dangerous or more physically demanding jobs you will find that a majority of those jobs are filled by men."
ReplyDeleteThat's completely unrelated to the topic at hand. We're talking about the people who have the time to think and learn because of all the work done by the downtrodden and oppressed. A lot of that work was done by women, and getting some pay and recognition for that work without having to listen to you whine about unrelated crap or pretend that recognizing their work takes away from yours doesn't seem too much to ask to me.
Again: Get over yourself.
ivyleaves & Cheeseburger- that is it EXACTLY.
ReplyDeleteI always try to explain to my husband that it's not just the actual TASKS (i.e. bath the kids), it's doing the damn thinking and making sure everything's going OK and taking action independent from someone saying "OK, do this now" AND THEN bearing ALL of the social responsibility and judgement and blame for *every person* in the family and what they do/don't do that's wearing me down and making me feel like I have 4 kids, instead of 3 kids and a husband.
Of course, right now he's at the stage where "Why should you care what other people think of our house/kids" is presumed a reasonable reply to my concerns, but I do have hope that he'll get it. Eventually. Maybe. AAAARGH!
Thanks so much for this great post, skeptifem - I couldn't agree more.
The sheer work of the tracking and planning aspects of running a household got some discussion here starting about halfway down the comments thread: http://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2010/06/work-life_balance_1_women_the.php
ReplyDeleteI'm amazed at how many women I know who say their husbands use them as an auxiliary brain. I shouldn't be -- I've discovered that the men who find the notion that I'm 'really smart' attractive invariably turn out to have the fantasy that the smarts mean lots of extra brainpower they can offload such mental tasks onto. They get pretty pissy when they find out that the smarts mean I call them on it and tell them the taxpayers didn't spend a fortune on my high-powered education so that I could spend my brainpower being some dude's personal assistant.
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ReplyDeleteYour theory: women are not less likely to skeptical than men. They just have less time to join skeptic groups, because their husbands make them do all the work.
ReplyDeleteThree predictions based on this theory:
1) Women will not have time to participate in religious groups either.
2) Skeptic groups on college campuses (where woman are a majority and typically do not have husbands) will not have the female shortages that other skeptic groups face.
3)On skeptic websites, men and women should be represented in proportions similar to that of their proportion on the web in general.
1 can be falsified by looking the extensive statistics we have on religious groups:
-61% of Sunday church-goers are female
-70-80% of midweek church-goers are female
-A casual stroll through your local churches will confirm the above statistics
http://churchformen.com/allmen.php
For 2, we can look at the demographics of college skeptic groups and see that these too are mostly male. A brief sampling:
(University of Kansas)
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=143955866281
(UT Dallas)
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=10331469073
(University of Florida)
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2427917203
(University of Tennesse)
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=139862031019
But don't take my word for it. Google [your favorite university]+atheist+group+facebook, and you'll find the majority of that groups members are males.
3 can be falsified checking the "gender" tab on the "audience demographics" page of a particular website's Alexa page.
Noteworthy skeptical sites:
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/atheists.org#
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/skeptic.com#
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/infidels.org#
Again, don't take my word for it. Enter your own favorites, and see what the results are.
So to review: women are overrepresented in religious groups, even though your theory would predict they would be too time strapped to participate. They are underrepresented in college skeptic groups, where women do not have husbands to take care of. And they are less likely to visit skeptical websites, even when we control for the different surfing habits of men and women in general. That's not male privilege speaking, that's the evidence.
"It means women in their personal lives bringing up the option of delegating domestic labor to men, or demanding to be fairly compensated for it (not just during divorces)."
ReplyDeleteGo ahead, bring it up....ready for the answer?
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No.
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ReplyDeleteBilly Ray- religious groups include things like charities. Religious groups do not require as much thinking and time as skeptical ones. Research (like the kind you were attempting to level at a strawman argument) is the core of what skeptics do. It requires time and know how. Religion requires none of that. All it requires is caring about the material, or other people if charity is being performed.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention, a person does not need to participate in religion in order to be a non skeptic.
Regarding the dangerous jobs (in america) being done by men- the really dangerous work is done by people who are undocumented immigrants and women. Dangerous jobs with things like living wages and workers compensation aren't dangerous in the same way that being prostituted or having no rights in a dangerous meat processing plant are. Even non prostituted women who are immigrants have to deal with a constant onslaught of rape that they cannot report without being deported. Not to mention that people high five dangerous job doing men all day, while the latter group is continually shit on simply for trying to live. Living in poverty is dangerous as hell, and it most certainly kills with violence or poor access to health care as well. Prison is dangerous too, and that is where all the broke people are shelved off for having drug problems.
OR there is the way that people have to work in the rest of the world, in order to produce goods for us here. THAT is danger. People get murdered and beaten all the time.
The shittiest thing about the dangers I describe is that they aren't a fact of the jobs the way that it would be for a fire fighter. It isn't a fact of the work. The danger and pain exists because of our collective failure to solve these problems.
vicioussss- asking makes it within the realm of possibility at least, which is better than the current situation. I am sure that most never thought about it before.
Women can bring their children to church and even get relief from child care duties with Sunday School. That is very appealing to many moms. Plus if you are a believer it's not like you are making a choice based on weighing the pros and cons of religious vs. skeptical support systems. You go because you don't want you or your family to go to hell. :)
ReplyDeleteI used to belong to a few skeptic/atheist groups but left due to the sexism and hostility toward feminism I encountered. I'd rather devout my time and energy to groups that recognize my humanity and that genuinely challenge the status quo.
I'd rather devout my time and energy to groups that recognize my humanity and that genuinely challenge the status quo.
ReplyDeleteThat's a simple yet potent statement, isn't it? Lots of churches actually do things about hunger or need or injustice. I can certainly see why moral atheists would prefer being part of such efforts to being part of a group that sits around and talks a lot and not much else.
I'll add myself to the group who doesn't see how women doing a lot of volunteer work prevents them from volunteering at skeptic/atheist organizations. It's true that "religious groups do not require as much thinking and time as skeptical ones" (ha!) but the charts you link show women spending plenty of time in thoughtful volunteer activities, like teaching or counseling (see 4th chart). I think you had it right the first time: our highly-religious, overly-traditional society discourages minorities from pursuing an interest in science, which is the main avenue to non-religiousity.
ReplyDeleteAlso I don't see how the data you linked proves that "women do most of the work". Those time use charts show that women do about an hour more work per week in household and family duties, while the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that men spend about an hour more per week at their place of employment.
Oh and one more thing: you could throw a tennis ball in the air and you'd hit a woman who's an atheist before one who's a bishop or a cardinal.
Just throwing this bit out there about dangerous jobs - Nursing. Nurses get assaulted almost as often as police officers, especially emergency and psych nurses. AND, we're often told by management to "deal with it, these people are sick and confused, don't you care about your patients enough to give them a break, yadda yadda yadda..." Hit a police officer and you get arrested. Hit a nurse and she's expected to hold your hand and calm you down. Even in writing this I bet people are out there thinking I'm one bitchy nurse. Just a thought...
ReplyDeleteMy previous point being that not all women have cushy safe jobs AND we're expected to be happy and patient about it. When men are out working hard we're supposed to bring them iced tea or some crap like that.
ReplyDeleteOh sheesh, my mother had absolutely hair-raising stories from her RN career. When she worked nights in a psych ward, she found herself in a constant battle with police who would try to dump people who were drunk or high rather than deal with them. One day she was at a local city hall and overheard one cop telling another, "Oh man, watch out for that night nurse at St. X; she's a terror." Right guys. Two big strapping men routinely trying to dump the care of a violent drunk on one tiny woman, and she's the scary one.
ReplyDeleteShe worked for over a decade in a research unit for advanced epilepsy patients. Getting battered by patients was common. I asked her why she wore a whistle to work; she said it was required for nurses on her unit, because everyone's seizures are different, and sometimes you get a runner. Then the nurse has to tear off after them blowing the whistle to warn people to get out of the seizing patient's way.
But men who defensively go on about how manly miners face dangerous conditions probably consider regular beatings a "safe" job, if those being beaten are women.
If women aren't skeptics, because they don't have time for it.
ReplyDeleteWhy then, are women in the clear majority on the other end of the scale ? With various "spiritual" or other pseudo-religious activities ?
Is it more time-consuming to be a skeptic, compared to doing homeopathy, horoscopes and healing-crystals ?
Maybe I misunderstood your argument.
Just an add on to the thoughts about dangerous work: most sex-workers are female. It's incredibly dangerous, and in most jurisdictions it's illegal; prostitutes don't get sick leave or workers comp. after being injured.
ReplyDeleteI would also suggest that women do a lot of thinking about skepticism (or other Big Important Ideas) but may prefer to do it over wine with friends than at a convention with a schedule and name tags - yawn.
Nurses are potentially exposed to blood borne pathogens and other diseases, as well. All the lower down people in hospitals have to deal with it too. At least OSHA makes em hand out hep b vaccines, sex workers don't get that kind of help with safety.
ReplyDeleteWomen are not "in the clear majority on the other end of the scale" of skepticism, give me a break. They're usually just into a different type of 'woo' than men. I know a lot of guys who believe in aliens, freemason conspiracies, 2012 end-of-the-world prophecies, and lizard people who've taken over the world, not to mention homeopathy, channeling, and other pseudo-religous activities. Blech.
ReplyDelete"But men who defensively go on about how manly miners face dangerous conditions probably consider regular beatings a "safe" job, if those being beaten are women."
ReplyDeleteOr they do it because being a miner really is more dangerous than being a nurse. I wouldn't want to be exposed to blood-borne pathogens. But I really wouldn't want to come down with black lung disease.
My mom was a nurse. No doubt, it put her in some dangerous situations. But I'd sure rather her be a nurse than a fisherman or a miner or a cop.
Here's a list of the 20 most dangerous jobs in America. Are any of them even close to being dominated by women?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-04-08/the-20-most-dangerous-jobs/full/
I think the female skeptics are out there, but are discouraged from participating online. I live in the bible belt and know very few skeptics IRL, so my contact with the skeptical community is mostly online. Skepticism is not always easy. There are some preconceptions we have that are hard to shake, and that make us angry and defensive when they come up. In my experience, gender issues fall into that category.
ReplyDeleteI've seen a fair bit of this on skeptical forums. In a recent discussion about the Mel Gibson tapes, some of the skeptical men were scrupulous about giving him the benefit of the doubt, but felt safe assuming that his girlfriend had been the one at fault (without any evidence other than the tape to point in either direction). We're skeptics...we can't necessarily assume things are a certain way just because that conclusion is the most comfortable for us.
When I go to visit my dad and his family (he and my mom split up years ago, and he is remarried), after dinner my Dad and I and my brother will often sit and chat about things like whether the universe is expanding, or whether there is a god. Within five minutes of that conversation beginning, my Dad's wife inevitably comes over to interrupt the conversation and demand that I come to the kitchen and help with the dishes. When I was a kid, I used to obey. Nowadays she doesn't try that any more.
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